Branch components.

Firstly, I would like to highlight the word latrolet, weldolet are proprietary names of BF. However it has become synonym in the industry to use those names which is not correct. It is also referred as branch-olets prefixed by 45 deg, 90 deg, etc. not to confuse with proprietary name. Even the ANSI codes do not refer BF names.

Coming to the question, no doubt it is a seamless pipe made reinforced branch fittings. The beveling also looks fine for the profile of the pipe. Being a non standard size, the dimensions have to be verified  with the manufacturer only. But if you ask if forging or pipe made item is acceptable, the answer would be...both can be accepted as the subject is the reinforcing area and cross section thickness.

Additionally, the general opinion is that the BW Reinf.branch fittings has to be used within the available STD, XS, XXS, 160 is not correct. Though being standardized by manufacturer's, we can prescribe actual thickness requirement within B36.10/19 and to std plate thickness. As per my verification all the manufacturer's facility has the flexibility to manufacture the same.
For eg. MEGA a reputed manufacturer in Bergamo, near Milano, Italy is on such vendor. I would say apart from BF, they are the best company with the know-how of  reinforced branch fittings and any other forged components. Their catalog gives a detailed dimension of all types of Rienf. branch fittings for all thickness and diameters of B16.10/19, including the 32".

http://www.mega-spa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=43

Moreover some forging manufacturers like MAWO fittings in Germany do make special designed branch components which are not really looking like a 'olet nor a coupling and not always forged. Such components have been tested and proved at site and has less material and flexibility in mass manufacturing and of course cheaper than the so called weldolets or sockolets or flangolets etc. And the good part is the B31.3 code do not pose any restriction in such configurations. Pl. take note these components are proprietary of their customers such as BASF, Linde for example.

So I would suggest to use the freedom of the code to invent and design your own new, cheap and economical and ease in welding with reduced fabrication and testing costs by avoiding the cumbersome welding process involved in the BW branch fitting. The best would be as Raghu suggested, the RF pads, but that also has its disadvantages in the operation life span.

Regards,
Kannan.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:19 AM, Bathula Raghuram (Mumbai - PIPING) <R.Bathula@ticb.com> wrote:
Can any one pl. share their experience on large size latrolets? I have not seen latrolet like this shape before, it looks like the vendor has taken a higher thickness pipe and machined to suite the curvature on run pipe. It s 32" x 28" latrolet weighing almost 670 Kg. in absence of catalogue for this size or any dimensional standard really it's impractical to judge whether it is a correct type fitting or not?

KAMOS RTJ Gaskets

I have not used this gasket but heard of this from one of the vendors. To what I understand from him and later discussing after your email, it seems it does reduce the time as you mentioned due to the difference in the method of testing. And as per the vendor this gasket does not have any disadvantage compared with the conventional ones from the operation experience point of view. But the concept is not new as other companies like kroll and Zieller are attempting on such variations.

Another special design gasket is available and being used by some companies like BASF and Statoil. The company is Jungtec, probably a more unfaimliar company. But they have good ideas and working design concepts and good long experience in field, on gaskets. On the subject of leakage after maintenance Jungtec is quit good.
Thier site is http://www.jungtec.de/en/productsoverview.html

For our friends to know more about the subject gasket... http://www.karmsund.no/2.1_kamos_rtj.htm

With regards,
Kannan.

Mohamed Ibrahim <mibrahim_ak@yahoo.com> Sent by: piping_valves@yahoogroups.com 20/11/2008 15:13 Please respond to piping_valves@yahoogroups.com

To piping_valves@yahoogroups.com cc kannan.sundaram@linde-le.com Subject [piping_valves] KAMOS RTJ Gaskets

Dear Friends,

 
Can you anyone please advise as you have ever used KAMOS RTJ Gaskets in your project as our client TOTAL asked us to see the feasibility to use such Gaskets in our Pipeline Project. Normally these gaskets will allow us to skip the standard leak test,cost reduction and can reduce down-time connected with testing.
 
Best Regards,
 
Ibrahim.

Design standard for ball valve

Dear Nitin,

Unofurtunately I was on leave and took sometime clearing all my personal emails. However it is disappointing our dear members have become more reluctant and lethargic to have discussions mutually benificial.

Coming to the query, to my knowledge of American standards, this size and rating is not covered for the obvious reason being unusual and are yet to be standardised. The solution in your case is to indicate the design to be in acc. with API 6D and F/F to manuf. std. I also have doubt if any manuf. will make a RB valve in that size. So you may have to consider only FB type. For testing of such valves ensure you mix API598 and API 6D to suit the design and service condition as many suppliers practically are unable to meet API 6D creteria for such large size. This is from my inspection experience.

If alternate valve type can be thought about in your application, definitely you should take that change. The key reasons being the maintenance of seats, back flushing, stem packing overhauling is going to be more complicated than any other on/off valve or even a flow control valve. Last but not the least, cost varies in the region of 25 to 40% more. for valves above 32".

So use of ball valves above 28" should have the right reasons.

Regards,
Kannan.

"Hanamapure Nitin \(Mumbai - Piping\)" <N.Hanamapure@ticb.com> Sent by: piping_valves@yahoogroups.com 07/11/2008 06:55

To <piping_valves@yahoogroups.com> cc Subject [piping_valves] Design standard for ball valve

Dear all,

I am looking for design standard for 600#, 42” LTCS reduced bore ball valve used in sour service.

Could anyone suggest me the design standard?

Thank you.

Best regards,

Nitin Hanamapure_._,___

AISI 307 reference.

Dear friends,

Atlast after pushing the sales manager and contacting the design manager directly, I found that the AISI 307 was wrongly indicated in their drawings and that it is a welding wire used for dissimilar welding to be designated as 'AVESTA 307-si'. It is being adapted by these manufacturers for cutting cost on the price of such valves in overall, by a welding overlay on the valve body itself. And having good hardness of 220 BHN and with the usual trim of 13Cr/316/304 the seating/disc hardness difference is taken care of. Incase of maintenance the welding is lapped onsite. No seat rings, threading, seal welding of the rings needed...looks a good idea and it does depend on the type and constructional design aspect of the valve and the fluid system.

The link provide by the Design manager of one of the valve company.

http://www.avestawelding.com/2813.epibrw

Also I found that the AWS designates as 'A 5.2 E 307' of the solid wire type with slight difference in the composition as per AJ Marshall's manganese steel welding info. And another one called 'super 307 / AWS E307-16' from SuperTech, Germany. Looks a lot of variations are available under 307.

The subject valves involved in my case was conventional check valves & NS check valves.

With regards,
Kannan Sundaram.

   
Dear members,

I would like to know more about AISI 307 which is being used by certain
suppliers as a seating of valves. The suppliers are not able to give the
exact ASTM references, but they say it is ...more or less....equivalent to
X15CrNiMn188(1.4370) of DIN. However I found this DIN material being used
generally to make check valve pins. I am having doubt if it is a
precipitation hardened steel category(which is usually prescribed for
stem/disc/ball/blade/diffuser materials requiring high strength) or a
something related to welding rods.

From my search it looks more of a welding overlay material. However I
could not find any ASTM specification reference of it. Can somebody
specify the same for me to check out the details.

With regards,
Kannan Sundaram.

Valve Datasheet templates

Dear members, sorry to forward this email quit late as I was on vacation.

 

This link looks quit informative.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Goran <goran_maaspers@hotmail.com>
To: kannan_cit@yahoo.com; ahmedeissa16@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 6:43:42 PM
Subject: Valve Datasheet templates

Hi guys,

 

I stumbled across your correspondence at piping-valves.blogspot.com regarding Valve Datasheet templates.

 

This link may come handy: http://www.standard.no/acrobat/L-001/VDS/index.htm. These data sheets are used as is or customized to specific requirement by the norwegians. Use with sound engineering practice.

 

 

Best regards,

Goran Maspers

Sweden

Hydro test-max holding period

The holding period depends on the time needed for inspecting the system thoroughly. Minimum is 10 minutes. Especially the gas tests calls for 100% weld and mechanical joints being examined.
Also we have to ensure the limits of test pressure defined by individual components also to be taken care not to damage the components for eg. the soft seating or lining or to replace them with pipe spools.

To my info the repeated call for Hydrostatic test on the same system, the pressure need not be changed from the code to its design pressure as most of the case if any major leaks are identified, the test is performed again at the same pressure and not to reduced pressure. It is independent of the holding time. Holding time risk are purely defined by inspecting time and the in-line components and not of the piping components. It is a usual practice to remove all in-line components which has reduced testing pressure conditions.

The maximum test pressure is the pressure at which the pipe reaches its yield stress. In most of the cases the problems can be tracked back to the original thickness calc of the piping system where in somecases you may find the thickness not sufficient to take the test pressures but will suit the design pressure. When you design the piping class for rating condition you may have some margins to accommodate the test pressure but not always especially in the larger size range above 24". This makes the site testing team to reduce the test pressure adjusting to actual pipes purchased and being used and of the elevation impact of the system. Also piping connected with vessels pose a diff. situation and defining the test pressures requires a different judgement as the approach differs from company to company.

Most important thing is to question the need of hydrotest for a system to process dept. who defines the requirement.

Regards,
Kannan.

Aarpee <ramprasad.chari@gmail.com> Sent by: materials-welding@googlegroups.com 24/10/2008 08:29 Please respond to materials-welding@googlegroups.com

To "Materials & Welding" <materials-welding@googlegroups.com> cc Subject [MW:1236] Hydro test-max holding period

As per B31.3 Hydro test is carried out at 1.5X Design Pressure.Holding
time for Piping spools is normally 30 minutes but at times 4-6 hours
for Gas applications.Can this be held for 24 hours?What is the
potential risk?It is normally indicated that after Hydro inspection
for 10-30 minutes at 1.5X Design Pressure,if you intend doing further
inspection then same can be done at a pressure not more than the
design pressure.Opinion of the group is being sought thro this mail
Regards
Aarpee

Vacuum Insulated Piping - VIP & Thermal Compensation Guide - TC

Members involved in LNG could be interested in the TC guide / Thermal Compensation guide applied in LNG. The liquifaction units of Hydrogen, oxygen etc. supplied by Linde are using this and such ones were used in the ISRO's cryogenic engine testing bed facility where the Chandrayaan's PSLV was tested.  For literatures follow the link below

http://www.phpk.com/products-pipe-vacuumlng.htm

Moreover the Hadron corridor where the 2/3 degree kelvin super magnet accelarators used these VIP-Vacuum Insulated Piping and additional advanced hi-tech insulation for the cooling system. Though the current failure is blamed on the cooling system but being highly complex, the source of the problem is still to be identified.

Regards,
Kannan.

Netherlocks information

Dear Mr. Gielissen,

 
Thanks for your concern and reply.
 
I am happy to communicate in this public platform with you and of the reach this platform has. More happy I am, about the seriousness as an organisation Netherlocks is of the market reach and basic problems some customers had faced.
 
I am sure the group members will also be happy to know of Netherlocks position and seriousness it has with its existing and potential new customers.
 
I am also sure you know me as the same Kannan Sundaram from Munich and we had met each other sometime back.
 
I never had the doubt about the product or the improvements and innovation happening in your product range. And of the reliability of Netherlock products in the long run having seen your product at few plants, I had been. I am aware of those client's satisfaction and long term relation they have with Netherlocks. Infact the name Netherlocks has become a synonym of mechanical interlocking to many in the industry.
 
The fundamental issue of concern is the response time for certain technical clarification on your products and solutions. As you know some companies who does small process or utility units may not have significant requirements of mechanical interlocking devices and some companies who have significant requirement but are more cost concerned. These are known to the suppliers and more specifically the local trading partners and they have a practice in not responding or slow in response, similar to the situation faced by one of the member who raised the question with Netherlocks. And to me during my handling of LNG terminal, Hazira, Gujarat project.(A Shell company). And others who had other different experiences.
 
Unfortunately some engg. companies do not have a comprehensive company standards and designers go by thier understanding of the product. This kind of platform helps people share thier personal experience and the understanding of the product. Personally I feel a company confident of having the best product should also help in having the product understood in the industry utilising the oppurtunity of people seeking advices or who may ask the very basic questions, irrespective of having the potential of recieving the order and the more Netherlock will dominate the market having the first opinion as the best opinion in the young minds who may lead a project someday. I do agree your website give quit exhaustive details but still open question does exist always. I have seen process engineers and safety engineers who are not aware of the sophistication and complexities possible with the mechanical interlocking, who are supposed to be the originators of such requirements.
 
In conclusion I suggest Netherlocks should lay down rules to its local partners in their way of approach to the local customer base. And you could possibly have a blog opened similar to the way the Microsoft  or HP's IPAQ choice have independant websites for each product and they clarify the simplest questions and discuss things out of the manuals and reference materials of the product itself. May be that could help Netherlocks to have a direct contact for plethora of new ideas and to have an insight of situations at site and at engineering office, especially from the process/safety engineers, helping to understand the other side of the world apart from the feedback from your service engineers at site, having said the channel of communication is also long due to the multi-tier protocol in certain companies, in overall can bridge the gap for mutual benifit and override the word of mouth views of the company.
 
Lastly, to start with, I did develop an alternative design solution avoiding the one and the only spring in your MRL series. Similar to the key hole closing pre-stressed metal plate can be used as the typical position of the valves in the plant makes it more prone to collection of sand particles in the crevice area. The location of the spring currently is in the corner, when the sand accumulates, the spring functioning is more likely to be obstructed. Using the pre-stressed plate the area is cleared off and lever piece can slide on the coated stem freely hanging on the metal plate. The sliding movement can clear off any sand. The plate can be located and oriented to ensure there is even erosion of the stem coating. Refer the attached sketch. Hope this reduces the cost and simplifying the device.
 
Your team could evaluate that and let us know of Netherlock's feedback of it.
 
Thanks again for this interaction and helping the group members to know the interest and concern of Netherlock towards its customers.
 
The above views are of my own and do not reflect the opinion of the organisation I work for or have worked for.
 
Kind Regards,
Kannan.
 

---

From: Frank Gielissen <FGielissen@netherlocks.com>
To: "kannan_cit@yahoo.com" <kannan_cit@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:24:36 PM
Subject: Netherlocks information

Dear Mr. Kannan,

 

I saw some correspondence on the piping and valve information Blog from last August regarding Interlocking.

 

Firstly you are quite well informed on the subject, have you worked with our company in the past?

I see you are located in Germany, are you still working there and for what company may I ask.

 

I am sorry to see your experience with Netherlocks is not that positive since you mention we only reply for big orders, I would like to emphasize we are always looking to assist companies were possible, actually we are known for our good relation with clients and custom made solutions.

 

SoI hope we can be of assistance in the future, even on small projects and if you would like to get in touch with any of our sales people for an update on our products I would be happy to introduce you.

 

I look forward to hear from you.

 

Kind regards,

Frank Gielissen

Sales Director

 

NETHERLOCKS

Valve datasheet templates

I am sure no one will be able to share such company proprietary information. However you have enormous information in the internet available for general education purpose, which you could adapt to your needs. Also a vendor catalog gives the breakup of a valve with the bill of material which you could start with.

One particular thing to be taken care of is not to be too detailed and very specific which will pose problems in getting offers from vendors and with much non conformity issues after order.

The following sites will be help to you to understand the framework of piping classes and specification content and ofcourse of the relevant valve specification. PIP.org has good resources with a cost.

http://www.pip.org/downloads/Sample-PN01CS2S01.pdf
http://www.pip.org/downloads/Sample-PNSMV003.pdf

Regards, Kannan. --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Ahmed Eissa <ahmedeissa16@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Ahmed Eissa <ahmedeissa16@yahoo.com> Subject: data sheet To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 4:09 AM dear,eng   can any one send me specification data sheet for valves (globe,gate,check,ball),or any sample format, i have to prepare it for my company, and i do not have good experience about this matter, so please any help wil be apreciated . thanks

Rising and non-rising stem gate valves

Thanks Vinayak for letting me know of this principle which I was not aware of. Always I found the vendors offering rising stem only.
Now I have to dig out what size ranges such valves are available and the reliability of that stem/internal threaded disc design.

Thanks
Kannan.


Dear Deepak ,

Plz find attached document , which shows details view of rising and non-rising stems
 
Regards,
Vinayak Nivendkar.